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Ranking CFB coaching jobs

  • psubills62 said...

    The bold part is exactly the issue with your arguments. You're only going off of what has happened recently, which we all know is not representative of what Penn State could and should be doing in recruiting.

    I don't understand why you're comparing Texas to PA, when we're arguing PSU vs. Oklahoma. If you should be comparing anything to the state of PA, it should be Oklahoma. That's the home state of Oklahoma University, correct? You don't seem to care that they have to dip into Texas, while we're somehow really weak because we have to dip into VA, NJ, etc.

    Besides sanctions (which the list supposedly doesn't consider), what obstacles do we have to overcome? We're easily ahead of OK in terms of money being brought in, bigger stadium, rabid fanbase, etc. The fact that you're nitpicking about TX vs. the entire northeast is foolish. A team only needs 20-25 great recruits every year. You don't think PA/NJ/NY/VA/OH/CT/MA could provide Penn State with 20-25 top recruits every year?

    I didn't compare them. I said that if Texas is GREAT, then Ohio is great, particularly noting the lack of caps. Texas is above Ohio for sure, but Ohio is right at the top of that next tier after FL/CA/TX.

    I never said we were really weak, I said it's a disadvantage that we have to expand into so many different states, states where we aren't top dog and there isn't much top talent traditionally. True, Oklahoma HS football is pretty mediocre, but Oklahoma has a higher traditional standing in Texas than most here seem to realize, and I'd take that recruiting position over having to try and take the top talent year in and year out from so many different states.

    I do believe those states can provide enough great recruits for us to be at the top again, but or competition over those BCS-deserving recruits is higher than a lot of other schools.

    Didn't realize the distinction, that's on me. I agree though. Georgia is top 4 for sure, and then Ohio IMO.

    And recruiting is pretty heavily based on what has happened lately, which is why I argue it so much. While we hit the snooze under Joe, we let other programs get significant footholds in our stomping grounds, and they're the types of programs that aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

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    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion ●

  • fortheglory94 said...

    You know something that makes a job great? Job security. How many ahead of us on that list can boast what Penn State can in that category. Answer: none. Now that may change when a new AD comes along. But a Penn State coach under Tim Curley had nearly iron clad job security no matter how they performed. The worst that would happen is your contract would run out and you wouldn't be retained.

    In this era of colleges gone wild with canning coaches after one bad season, that aspect alone should put us higher. All things being equal, it's a huge tiebreaker.

    Well, that goes both ways. I agree with what you're saying, but the whiplash of our typically strong loyalty is the crippling of our program because we have a coach who refuses to move on despite what is best for the school and program.

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    Texas Lion ●

  • getmyjive11 said...

    Btw, the top 8 should be (in no order) - Michigan, OSU, PSU, Florida, Bama, LSU, Texas and USC. Those are the cream of the crop. Everyone else is demonstratively lower.

    EDIT: Actually, I should probably add ND as they now do not seem to care as much about academics and football players (meaning for entrance into the school). So you have 9.

    Since it hasn't been happening much lately, I would just like to point out that jive is correct here, and I agree with him (even the ND add). :-)

    cheers

    BoulderFish

  • Texas Lion said...

    Well while we took a break from recruiting, other programs got their foot in the door. Florida has been a consistent presence with top NJ players recently, and they're not going away anytime soon.

    Well then the majority of talent from our "homegrown" areas are going elsewhere. We aren't anywhere close to legitimate locking down those states. I don't know if that'd be possible without sanctions TBH, fighting a war on too many fronts if you're having to expand your "home" recruiting grounds that much.

    EDIT: also, this states shouldn't be considered "homegrown." That's kind of an oxymoron, having homegrown talent a few states away. Virginia isn't even a neighboring state.

    So the history of recruiting begins when you enrolled at Penn State? Programs and their recruiting efforts rise and fall with time. Just like everything else in life, time is a relevant variable. Yet you also say PSU's tradition doesn't compare to OU's because OU was a national power before PSU really got ramped up under Rip and Joe.

    So either the recent history is more important or the entire history of the programs are. You can't have it both ways. No unbiased person would be able to differentiate between any of those top tier programs over the long term.

    An Actual Lion

  • shavisimo2 said...

    I mean if you look at that, there are 50 schools with a foot in the door in Texas, which is what you're arguing is OK's primary recruiting area. Oklahoma landed 2 of the top 35 players in Texas last year and 3 4 star players overall. PSU landed 2 4 star players from NJ while dealing with sanctions. PSU also would have had a better class than OK last year if it weren't for sanctions.

    I don't care which job is better, but OK recruits from two states primarily, one isn't a great recruiting state and the other is the most hotly contested state. Hell, OSU had more success with upper echelon Texas talent than OK.

    True, last year was a rough recruiting cycle, with the arrival of aTm and Bobby looking worn out.

    However, traditionally, OU holds a pretty high place in the eyes of many Texas recruits. Higher than OkieState, higher than LSU, higher than any SEC school really, and for the last few decades (except under Blake) has been more highly regarded than aTm IMO. I don't see many programs on the same level of OU competing for recruits (LSU, Texas, and aTm being the main competition).

    You make a good point though. Norman isn't exactly a destination place either.

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    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion ●

  • What makes PSU a top job opportunity for College Football Coaching.

    Middle of FERTILE RECRUITING GROUNDS!

    According to Keith Neibuhr of Rivals, in 2011. Penn State's regional recruiting grounds include 4 out of the top 10 best talent producing states, with Ohio at 5, PA at 6, Va at 7 and NJ at 10. Article can be found here: http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1239398

    Profitable program.

    Accoring to FORBES:

    "Penn State is the 13th most valuable college football program in the country (post sandusky)
    Current Value: $79 million
    One-Year Change in Value: -21%
    Football Revenue: $66 million
    Football Profit: $36 million
    Conference: Big Ten
    Head Coach: Bill O'Brien

    Penn State's value fell more than any other team on our list, though the slide is hardly a surprise. The financial implications of the Jerry Sandusky child abuse scandal contributed to nearly $11 million in new expenses, a 55% increase year-over-year."

    Article can be found here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2012/12/19/college-footballs-most-valuable-teams-texas-longhorns-still-on-top/

    Storied History!

    According to Wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_football_teams_by_wins

    Penn State Football is ranked #16 among ALL college football programs, and #12 among BCS programs in total wins. (post sanctions)

    Again according to Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_NCAA_Division_I_FBS

    Penn State Football is tied for 15th for total number of championships since 1869.

    Add to all this the second biggest stadium in college football, one of the largest most passionate fan bases in the country. Can't really argue against us being in the top tier of job opportunities.

    This post was edited by smlion on 3/1/2013 at 11:05 AM

    smlion

  • getmyjive11 said...

    I never said they are locked down. Texas isn't even locked down anymore. Look at all the teams who are feasting on Texas recruits... it's not like Okie and Texas have that thing to themselves. Florida doesn't have Florida to themselves. OSU probably could lock down their state, but Urbs looks like he wants to recruit nationally. Really, today in college football, no school has any area locked down.

    Again, you have to look at the way BOB was recruiting before sanctions. That is what we should all expect. Top line talent knocking down the door. And just think, that was for a first year HC who accomplished nothing in that position at that time. I just think you are vastly underrating Penn State.

    I agree, PSU should be on top. The sky is the limit here once the sanctions are gone, and we'll have finally purged our program of all anchors.

    IMO this is the case with every program in the top 15, where if they get the right coach then they can make a claim as the best program in the country.

    Please don't misunderstand me ITT, I think PSU is a great program, but I have a very high opinion of all those jobs in the top 15.

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    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion ●

  • Texas Lion said...

    True, last year was a rough recruiting cycle, with the arrival of aTm and Bobby looking worn out.

    However, traditionally, OU holds a pretty high place in the eyes of many Texas recruits. Higher than OkieState, higher than LSU, higher than any SEC school really, and for the last few decades (except under Blake) has been more highly regarded than aTm IMO. I don't see many programs on the same level of OU competing for recruits (LSU, Texas, and aTm being the main competition).

    You make a good point though. Norman isn't exactly a destination place either.

    Sure, it might hold a higher place, but LSU is already killing it there in 2014 as well and so is Bama. OSU is also moving in on it pretty hard this year too. The competition OK is competing with for Texas kids blows what PSU faces for Northeast/Mid Atlantic kids out of the water. It really depends on your ideas on smaller fish in a bigger pond vs. bigger fish in a smaller pond whether you think PSU's territory is better than OK's.

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    #DicedPineapples

    shavisimo2 ●

  • BoulderFish said...

    Since it hasn't been happening much lately, I would just like to point out that jive is correct here, and I agree with him (even the ND add). :-)

    cheers

    towel

    getmyjive11

  • fortheglory94 said...

    You know something that makes a job great? Job security. How many ahead of us on that list can boast what Penn State can in that category. Answer: none. Now that may change when a new AD comes along. But a Penn State coach under Tim Curley had nearly iron clad job security no matter how they performed. The worst that would happen is your contract would run out and you wouldn't be retained.

    In this era of colleges gone wild with canning coaches after one bad season, that aspect alone should put us higher. All things being equal, it's a huge tiebreaker.

    This quote highlights the problem with this debate. The objectives are inconsistent and vary. For Texas Lion, the objectives are history and recruiting grounds. fortheglory94 identifies job security. Others may identify facilities, financial resources, location, booster involvement or the lack thereof, pressure to succeed, etc. And, let us not forget that which objectives are deemed to be important will vary from coach to coach.

    psufan32

  • An Actual Lion said...

    So the history of recruiting begins when you enrolled at Penn State? Programs and their recruiting efforts rise and fall with time. Just like everything else in life, time is a relevant variable. Yet you also say PSU's tradition doesn't compare to OU's because OU was a national power before PSU really got ramped up under Rip and Joe.

    So either the recent history is more important or the entire history of the programs are. You can't have it both ways. No unbiased person would be able to differentiate between any of those top tier programs over the long term.

    Not the history of recruiting as a whole, but my knowledge of specific prospects and rankings. I've studied up on PSU history a bit though, so I feel pretty comfortable in the assertions I'm making.

    And for those history buffs, OU wasn't really a national power until the '40s. PSU was pretty darn good before Rip got there. Don't we have like 6 HCs in the CFB HoF?

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    Texas Lion ●

  • shavisimo2 said...

    Sure, it might hold a higher place, but LSU is already killing it there in 2014 as well and so is Bama. OSU is also moving in on it pretty hard this year too. The competition OK is competing with for Texas kids blows what PSU faces for Northeast/Mid Atlantic kids out of the water. It really depends on your ideas on smaller fish in a bigger pond vs. bigger fish in a smaller pond whether you think PSU's territory is better than OK's.

    And just to add to this, if you look at the top end talent in Texas vs the northest area that I have described as PSU's recruiting grounds (PA, NoVA, MD, DC, NJ, DE, NY & New England) the talent breakdown is as follows:

    Texas:
    5 stars - 5
    4 stars - 41

    PSU's recruitng grounds
    5 stars - 7
    4 stars - 43

    They are pretty similar, only there is less competition in PSU's recruiting areas.

    getmyjive11

  • shavisimo2 said...

    Sure, it might hold a higher place, but LSU is already killing it there in 2014 as well and so is Bama. OSU is also moving in on it pretty hard this year too. The competition OK is competing with for Texas kids blows what PSU faces for Northeast/Mid Atlantic kids out of the water. It really depends on your ideas on smaller fish in a bigger pond vs. bigger fish in a smaller pond whether you think PSU's territory is better than OK's.

    Is OSU OkieState or Ohio State?

    True. I believe Texas is deep enough to sustain those types of programs though, where each program can win enough to bring in very high level talent consistently.

    LSU, at least historically, hasn't really depended on Texas like they have been recently though. They used to get those kids from the boonies and dominated the state of LA (a good HS FB state in it's own right) as a whole. Now that Saban has decided to hold the world of CFB hostage that has changed, as he's gotten some VERY good players away from LSU recently.

    IMO OU is still held in higher regard than LSU or Ohio State, if that's who you're referring to, for most. The competition is pretty brutal though.

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    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion ●

  • Texas Lion said...

    Not the history of recruiting as a whole, but my knowledge of specific prospects and rankings. I've studied up on PSU history a bit though, so I feel pretty comfortable in the assertions I'm making.

    And for those history buffs, OU wasn't really a national power until the '40s. PSU was pretty darn good before Rip got there. Don't we have like 6 HCs in the CFB HoF?

    You should know then that Joe Paterno owned the whole Northeast and a large part of the mid-atlantic back in the day. It was really to the point where when he took an in-home visit, the deal was done. So I don't get where you are coming up with your assertions regarding how well PSU could do in their own recruiting area.

    getmyjive11

  • psufan32 said...

    This quote highlights the problem with this debate. The objectives are inconsistent and vary. For Texas Lion, the objectives are history and recruiting grounds. fortheglory94 identifies job security. Others may identify facilities, financial resources, location, booster involvement or the lack thereof, pressure to succeed, etc. And, let us not forget that which objectives are deemed to be important will vary from coach to coach.

    Agreed. This is an extremely difficult argument to win, for either side, unless there are a set amount of things we're deciding over. It's also pretty difficult to quantify the quality of schools into some kind of value that can be subjectively compared. These arguments are pretty much entirely objective.

    FWIW, the pressure to win seems to be much higher at OU than it is here. IMO that will change as we get further and further removed from the era of Joe, but as of now this job isn't as pressure-packed as OU. At least as far as I can tell.

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    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion ●

  • getmyjive11 said...

    You should know then that Joe Paterno owned the whole Northeast and a large part of the mid-atlantic back in the day. It was really to the point where when he took an in-home visit, the deal was done. So I don't get where you are coming up with your assertions regarding how well PSU could do in their own recruiting area.

    I've heard a lot of stories saying as much.

    Every big time program has had a guy like that though. OU had Barry Switzer, Texas had Darrell Royal, Bama had Bear.

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    Texas Lion ●

  • Texas Lion said...

    I never said we were really weak, I said it's a disadvantage that we have to expand into so many different states, states where we aren't top dog and there isn't much top talent traditionally. True, Oklahoma HS football is pretty mediocre, but Oklahoma has a higher traditional standing in Texas than most here seem to realize, and I'd take that recruiting position over having to try and take the top talent year in and year out from so many different states.

    I do believe those states can provide enough great recruits for us to be at the top again, but or competition over those BCS-deserving recruits is higher than a lot of other schools.

    Didn't realize the distinction, that's on me. I agree though. Georgia is top 4 for sure, and then Ohio IMO.

    And recruiting is pretty heavily based on what has happened lately, which is why I argue it so much. While we hit the snooze under Joe, we let other programs get significant footholds in our stomping grounds, and they're the types of programs that aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

    Oklahoma isn't top dog in Texas either. So by your reasoning, that's a disadvantage for them.

    And who is top dog in NJ? If it's not us, I'd say we're pretty darn close.

    This isn't about what you'd take, it's about what the best job is.

    "but our competition over those BCS-deserving recruits is higher than a lot of other schools." I guess this reasoning doesn't apply to recruits in Texas?

    I think you're strongly overestimating things such as "letting others get a foothold." Again, the point is not what has been done (which again, I think you're overestimating), but what a coach can do at Penn State.

    And given that recruiting is based so heavily on what happened recently, that also means a good coach can change things quickly for PSU's recruiting in the northeast.

    When it comes down to it, Oklahoma ranked 16th in the nation in recruiting in 2013, while we ranked 26th. Given our sanctions situation, and having taken 7 fewer recruits, I think it's pretty obvious that the recruiting situations are at least even. Not to mention that recruiting is a relatively minor part of the overall ranking.

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    psubills62

  • Texas Lion said...

    Is OSU OkieState or Ohio State?

    True. I believe Texas is deep enough to sustain those types of programs though, where each program can win enough to bring in very high level talent consistently.

    LSU, at least historically, hasn't really depended on Texas like they have been recently though. They used to get those kids from the boonies and dominated the state of LA (a good HS FB state in it's own right) as a whole. Now that Saban has decided to hold the world of CFB hostage that has changed, as he's gotten some VERY good players away from LSU recently.

    IMO OU is still held in higher regard than LSU or Ohio State, if that's who you're referring to, for most. The competition is pretty brutal though.

    Ohio State. Urbz is moving in there hard. And LSU has landed the top recruit in Texas and leads for #2 and is working very hard there. Same with Bama. Texas used to take whoever they wanted and still obviously kill it, and A&M has been crushing it too. It's just incredibly difficult and I think PSU is in better recruiting shape than OK (post-sanctions, not right now).

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    shavisimo2 ●

  • Texas Lion said...

    I've heard a lot of stories saying as much.

    Every big time program has had a guy like that though. OU had Barry Switzer, Texas had Darrell Royal, Bama had Bear.

    Sure, but Paterno always led with selling the school. Just like BOB is doing now, and look at the results. Basically, PSU is a big enough draw (even with the stain) to bring in top level recruits. Texas certainly is as well, but playing for an old coach who is behind in the times in not desirable (see PSU under Paterno at the end). As long as PSU has a "good" coach, they will recruit like a top 10 school (after sanctions).

    getmyjive11

  • getmyjive11 said...

    And just to add to this, if you look at the top end talent in Texas vs the northest area that I have described as PSU's recruiting grounds (PA, NoVA, MD, DC, NJ, DE, NY & New England) the talent breakdown is as follows:

    Texas:
    5 stars - 5
    4 stars - 41

    PSU's recruitng grounds
    5 stars - 7
    4 stars - 43

    They are pretty similar, only there is less competition in PSU's recruiting areas.

    Would you mind showing which states those players are coming from? I'm on my phone and really don't wanna go through that hassle.

    IMO,
    Ohio-isn't happening for top prospects, more often than not. We're behind Michigan in the state, and Ohio State has typically has been able to pick who they want to leave the state.

    Jersey/DE/NE- I agree that we should own this. We let Florida get in there, but each one of these top kids should have PSU as their #1,2,3 and 4 choice before considering other schools. Hasn't been that way recently though.

    VA- We compete, but we're obviously behind VaTech in the state. Lately SEC and ACC schools in Florida have thrown their weight around there too, so competition has gotten stiffer. We can cherry pick from there though, and I'm ok with that.

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    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion ●

  • smlion said...

    What makes PSU a top job opportunity for College Football Coaching.

    Middle of FERTILE RECRUITING GROUNDS!

    According to Keith Neibuhr of Rivals, in 2011. Penn State's regional recruiting grounds include 4 out of the top 10 best talent producing states, with Ohio at 5, PA at 6, Va at 7 and NJ at 10. Article can be found here: http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1239398

    Profitable program.

    Accoring to FORBES:

    "Penn State is the 13th most valuable college football program in the country (post sandusky)
    Current Value: $79 million
    One-Year Change in Value: -21%
    Football Revenue: $66 million
    Football Profit: $36 million
    Conference: Big Ten
    Head Coach: Bill O'Brien

    Penn State's value fell more than any other team on our list, though the slide is hardly a surprise. The financial implications of the Jerry Sandusky child abuse scandal contributed to nearly $11 million in new expenses, a 55% increase year-over-year."

    Article can be found here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2012/12/19/college-footballs-most-valuable-teams-texas-longhorns-still-on-top/

    Storied History!

    According to Wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_football_teams_by_wins

    Penn State Football is ranked #16 among ALL college football programs, and #12 among BCS programs in total wins. (post sanctions)

    Again according to Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_NCAA_Division_I_FBS

    Penn State Football is tied for 15th for total number of championships since 1869.

    Add to all this the second biggest stadium in college football, one of the largest most passionate fan bases in the country. Can't really argue against us being in the top tier of job opportunities.

    I'm not saying PSU isn't a great job, one of the best in the nation. I'm saying that we have some obstacles here that others don't.

    For the big boys, everybody has a stories history, everybody has championships, and everybody has at least some stake in solid recruiting areas.

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    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion ●

  • Texas Lion said...

    Would you mind showing which states those players are coming from? I'm on my phone and really don't wanna go through that hassle.

    IMO, Ohio-isn't happening for top prospects, more often than not. We're behind Michigan in the state, and Ohio State has typically has been able to pick who they want to leave the state.

    Jersey/DE/NE- I agree that we should own this. We let Florida get in there, but each one of these top kids should have PSU as their #1,2,3 and 4 choice before considering other schools. Hasn't been that way recently though.

    VA- We compete, but we're obviously behind VaTech in the state. Lately SEC and ACC schools in Florida have thrown their weight around there too, so competition has gotten stiffer. We can cherry pick from there though, and I'm ok with that.

    PA, MD, DC, NoVA (yes, I filtered out kids from SoVA/Tidewater), NJ, DE (had zero last year), NY and Mass. I didn't even check Conn and the other New England states. But typically, that whole area is where PSU recruits and it has a very stong footing in them all.

    I did not include Ohio. If we make in-roads to eastern Ohio, that would be great.

    getmyjive11

  • Texas Lion said...

    I'm not saying PSU isn't a great job, one of the best in the nation. I'm saying that we have some obstacles here that others don't.

    For the big boys, everybody has a stories history, everybody has championships, and everybody has at least some stake in solid recruiting areas.

    I hear ya... I'm just saying PSU is among the elite when it comes to opportunity

    smlion

  • Wait, Oklahoma only got 3 of the top 50 Texas players in 2013? Haha, OK, I think this argument is over.

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    psubills62

  • psubills62 said...

    Oklahoma isn't top dog in Texas either. So by your reasoning, that's a disadvantage for them.

    And who is top dog in NJ? If it's not us, I'd say we're pretty darn close.

    This isn't about what you'd take, it's about what the best job is.

    "but our competition over those BCS-deserving recruits is higher than a lot of other schools." I guess this reasoning doesn't apply to recruits in Texas?

    I think you're strongly overestimating things such as "letting others get a foothold." Again, the point is not what has been done (which again, I think you're overestimating), but what a coach can do at Penn State.

    And given that recruiting is based so heavily on what happened recently, that also means a good coach can change things quickly for PSU's recruiting in the northeast.

    When it comes down to it, Oklahoma ranked 16th in the nation in recruiting in 2013, while we ranked 26th. Given our sanctions situation, and having taken 7 fewer recruits, I think it's pretty obvious that the recruiting situations are at least even. Not to mention that recruiting is a relatively minor part of the overall ranking.

    A poor recruiting year for Oklahoma, but you make some solid points.

    And yes, when saying which job is better than another, we're essentially ranking which jobs we'd take and in what order.

    I've said many times ITT that the sky is the limit at PSU. Just like it is at any other program in the top 15.

    Recruiting grounds are big for me, personally, and are a big reason Texas usually tops the list for best job in the land. It keeps a program going when they don't have a top coach in place, and makes programs as a whole much more consistent, with less horrible dropoffs.

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    ‏@Cordale10 Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS

    Texas Lion ●

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