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Well, that goes both ways. I agree with what you're saying, but the whiplash of our typically strong loyalty is the crippling of our program because we have a coach who refuses to move on despite what is best for the school and program.
Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL, classes are POINTLESS
Since it hasn't been happening much lately, I would just like to point out that jive is correct here, and I agree with him (even the ND add). :-)
So the history of recruiting begins when you enrolled at Penn State? Programs and their recruiting efforts rise and fall with time. Just like everything else in life, time is a relevant variable. Yet you also say PSU's tradition doesn't compare to OU's because OU was a national power before PSU really got ramped up under Rip and Joe.
So either the recent history is more important or the entire history of the programs are. You can't have it both ways. No unbiased person would be able to differentiate between any of those top tier programs over the long term.
True, last year was a rough recruiting cycle, with the arrival of aTm and Bobby looking worn out.
However, traditionally, OU holds a pretty high place in the eyes of many Texas recruits. Higher than OkieState, higher than LSU, higher than any SEC school really, and for the last few decades (except under Blake) has been more highly regarded than aTm IMO. I don't see many programs on the same level of OU competing for recruits (LSU, Texas, and aTm being the main competition).
You make a good point though. Norman isn't exactly a destination place either.
What makes PSU a top job opportunity for College Football Coaching.
Middle of FERTILE RECRUITING GROUNDS!
According to Keith Neibuhr of Rivals, in 2011. Penn State's regional recruiting grounds include 4 out of the top 10 best talent producing states, with Ohio at 5, PA at 6, Va at 7 and NJ at 10. Article can be found here: http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1239398
Accoring to FORBES:
"Penn State is the 13th most valuable college football program in the country (post sandusky)
Current Value: $79 million
One-Year Change in Value: -21%
Football Revenue: $66 million
Football Profit: $36 million
Conference: Big Ten
Head Coach: Bill O'Brien
Penn State's value fell more than any other team on our list, though the slide is hardly a surprise. The financial implications of the Jerry Sandusky child abuse scandal contributed to nearly $11 million in new expenses, a 55% increase year-over-year."
Article can be found here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2012/12/19/college-footballs-most-valuable-teams-texas-longhorns-still-on-top/
According to Wiki:
Penn State Football is ranked #16 among ALL college football programs, and #12 among BCS programs in total wins. (post sanctions)
Again according to Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_NCAA_Division_I_FBS
Penn State Football is tied for 15th for total number of championships since 1869.
Add to all this the second biggest stadium in college football, one of the largest most passionate fan bases in the country. Can't really argue against us being in the top tier of job opportunities.
This post was edited by smlion 13 months ago
I agree, PSU should be on top. The sky is the limit here once the sanctions are gone, and we'll have finally purged our program of all anchors.
IMO this is the case with every program in the top 15, where if they get the right coach then they can make a claim as the best program in the country.
Please don't misunderstand me ITT, I think PSU is a great program, but I have a very high opinion of all those jobs in the top 15.
Sure, it might hold a higher place, but LSU is already killing it there in 2014 as well and so is Bama. OSU is also moving in on it pretty hard this year too. The competition OK is competing with for Texas kids blows what PSU faces for Northeast/Mid Atlantic kids out of the water. It really depends on your ideas on smaller fish in a bigger pond vs. bigger fish in a smaller pond whether you think PSU's territory is better than OK's.
This quote highlights the problem with this debate. The objectives are inconsistent and vary. For Texas Lion, the objectives are history and recruiting grounds. fortheglory94 identifies job security. Others may identify facilities, financial resources, location, booster involvement or the lack thereof, pressure to succeed, etc. And, let us not forget that which objectives are deemed to be important will vary from coach to coach.
Not the history of recruiting as a whole, but my knowledge of specific prospects and rankings. I've studied up on PSU history a bit though, so I feel pretty comfortable in the assertions I'm making.
And for those history buffs, OU wasn't really a national power until the '40s. PSU was pretty darn good before Rip got there. Don't we have like 6 HCs in the CFB HoF?
And just to add to this, if you look at the top end talent in Texas vs the northest area that I have described as PSU's recruiting grounds (PA, NoVA, MD, DC, NJ, DE, NY & New England) the talent breakdown is as follows:
5 stars - 5
4 stars - 41
PSU's recruitng grounds
5 stars - 7
4 stars - 43
They are pretty similar, only there is less competition in PSU's recruiting areas.
Is OSU OkieState or Ohio State?
True. I believe Texas is deep enough to sustain those types of programs though, where each program can win enough to bring in very high level talent consistently.
LSU, at least historically, hasn't really depended on Texas like they have been recently though. They used to get those kids from the boonies and dominated the state of LA (a good HS FB state in it's own right) as a whole. Now that Saban has decided to hold the world of CFB hostage that has changed, as he's gotten some VERY good players away from LSU recently.
IMO OU is still held in higher regard than LSU or Ohio State, if that's who you're referring to, for most. The competition is pretty brutal though.
You should know then that Joe Paterno owned the whole Northeast and a large part of the mid-atlantic back in the day. It was really to the point where when he took an in-home visit, the deal was done. So I don't get where you are coming up with your assertions regarding how well PSU could do in their own recruiting area.
Agreed. This is an extremely difficult argument to win, for either side, unless there are a set amount of things we're deciding over. It's also pretty difficult to quantify the quality of schools into some kind of value that can be subjectively compared. These arguments are pretty much entirely objective.
FWIW, the pressure to win seems to be much higher at OU than it is here. IMO that will change as we get further and further removed from the era of Joe, but as of now this job isn't as pressure-packed as OU. At least as far as I can tell.
I've heard a lot of stories saying as much.
Every big time program has had a guy like that though. OU had Barry Switzer, Texas had Darrell Royal, Bama had Bear.
Oklahoma isn't top dog in Texas either. So by your reasoning, that's a disadvantage for them.
And who is top dog in NJ? If it's not us, I'd say we're pretty darn close.
This isn't about what you'd take, it's about what the best job is.
"but our competition over those BCS-deserving recruits is higher than a lot of other schools." I guess this reasoning doesn't apply to recruits in Texas?
I think you're strongly overestimating things such as "letting others get a foothold." Again, the point is not what has been done (which again, I think you're overestimating), but what a coach can do at Penn State.
And given that recruiting is based so heavily on what happened recently, that also means a good coach can change things quickly for PSU's recruiting in the northeast.
When it comes down to it, Oklahoma ranked 16th in the nation in recruiting in 2013, while we ranked 26th. Given our sanctions situation, and having taken 7 fewer recruits, I think it's pretty obvious that the recruiting situations are at least even. Not to mention that recruiting is a relatively minor part of the overall ranking.
Ohio State. Urbz is moving in there hard. And LSU has landed the top recruit in Texas and leads for #2 and is working very hard there. Same with Bama. Texas used to take whoever they wanted and still obviously kill it, and A&M has been crushing it too. It's just incredibly difficult and I think PSU is in better recruiting shape than OK (post-sanctions, not right now).
Sure, but Paterno always led with selling the school. Just like BOB is doing now, and look at the results. Basically, PSU is a big enough draw (even with the stain) to bring in top level recruits. Texas certainly is as well, but playing for an old coach who is behind in the times in not desirable (see PSU under Paterno at the end). As long as PSU has a "good" coach, they will recruit like a top 10 school (after sanctions).
Would you mind showing which states those players are coming from? I'm on my phone and really don't wanna go through that hassle.
Ohio-isn't happening for top prospects, more often than not. We're behind Michigan in the state, and Ohio State has typically has been able to pick who they want to leave the state.
Jersey/DE/NE- I agree that we should own this. We let Florida get in there, but each one of these top kids should have PSU as their #1,2,3 and 4 choice before considering other schools. Hasn't been that way recently though.
VA- We compete, but we're obviously behind VaTech in the state. Lately SEC and ACC schools in Florida have thrown their weight around there too, so competition has gotten stiffer. We can cherry pick from there though, and I'm ok with that.
I'm not saying PSU isn't a great job, one of the best in the nation. I'm saying that we have some obstacles here that others don't.
For the big boys, everybody has a stories history, everybody has championships, and everybody has at least some stake in solid recruiting areas.
PA, MD, DC, NoVA (yes, I filtered out kids from SoVA/Tidewater), NJ, DE (had zero last year), NY and Mass. I didn't even check Conn and the other New England states. But typically, that whole area is where PSU recruits and it has a very stong footing in them all.
I did not include Ohio. If we make in-roads to eastern Ohio, that would be great.
I hear ya... I'm just saying PSU is among the elite when it comes to opportunity
Wait, Oklahoma only got 3 of the top 50 Texas players in 2013? Haha, OK, I think this argument is over.
A poor recruiting year for Oklahoma, but you make some solid points.
And yes, when saying which job is better than another, we're essentially ranking which jobs we'd take and in what order.
I've said many times ITT that the sky is the limit at PSU. Just like it is at any other program in the top 15.
Recruiting grounds are big for me, personally, and are a big reason Texas usually tops the list for best job in the land. It keeps a program going when they don't have a top coach in place, and makes programs as a whole much more consistent, with less horrible dropoffs.
Yeah but Penn State had it for 35 years straight (1964-1999) -- And in that time had 6 either MNCs or undefeated seasons, and built a program following that would sell out 107,000 seats a game.
Prior to 2000, for 35 years straight, Penn State would be mentioned in the national championship discussion going into EVERY SINGLE year.
Facilities that are top-5 in the country. A top-10 in total program wins.
On tradition alone, there are very few that are higher than Penn State. Add in the fan following, facilities, and the fact that the recruiting ground is AT A MINIMUM "not bad" -- You have an overall program that is easily in the top-10 discussion.
There have been some rough times during your short lifetime, but even then, because it's Penn State, the program clawed back and was 2 seconds (and a few terrible calls) away from another undefeated season. And since then, with the handicap of a head coach that DOESN'T EVEN RECRUIT, the team continued to be reasonably decent.
I can't think of many other programs where if the HC just stopped recruiting, they could still be as successful as Penn State was able to be between 2005 and today. It's crazy to me that after seeing that (success without even recruiting), anyone could even consider Penn State out of the top-10 coaching gigs.
This post was edited by BoulderFish 13 months ago
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