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  • OSUrox said...

    We ALL are the moral arbiters. It's what makes up society.

    Great hypothetical question, I have one for you--except my question may have some actual facts behind it. Let's say Sandusky did not rape every single child that came through his Second Mile--I assume that to be true. These are disadvantaged kids and I assume this program (I will use your words) helped "put (these kids) lives on a better track and they became upstanding citizens".

    So I ask you....does all the good Sandusky's program did for kids he did not abuse suddenly outweigh his bad??

    I think LCL did a good job of discussing this, but I'll add my twocents. We are not the moral arbiters because nobody here knows the mind of a man or what his true effect has been. And frankly, moral condemnation based on inaction is an extremely gray area that people just rarely think about. We're all sitting here posting on a message board and doing nothing about starvation in this country or others. We all have the power to do something, and we're all aware of the issue. Are we all suddenly responsible for any deaths due to starvation? Are we all condemned for "not doing enough"?

    Now I'll clarify my position. I'm not defending his inaction. I believe he made a horrible mistake in not following up. I just don't feel that anyone here is in a position to morally judge anyone without knowing their minds and their hearts. I also feel that there were specific roles in this tragedy and Paterno played a relatively minor one compared to the other four (Sandusky, Spanier, Curley, Schutz). Was that by his own choice or because it was more the responsibility of the other three officials? From the evidence we have (emails, university policy, etc.), the latter seems to be the obvious choice.

    The question you posed to me is a bit of a moot one for several reasons. First, I don't believe in moral scales. I don't believe good will outweigh bad or bad outweigh good in the end. My response was actually meant to show how silly that argument is, in fact. So no, I don't believe in good outweighing bad or bad outweighing good. I think that's a good question to pose to people who do, however. It's a moot question for another reason, though: to whom do we attribute the "good" done by Sandusky's program? Is it Sandusky himself for being a significant part of the program? Or is it the people who worked there who may have actually helped these kids? Do we assign percentages of good to each person depending on their role?

    I'm amused that some people seem to be inclined to PM me based on my arguments. By the way, I just delete them without even reading them. If I'm so clueless, then why are people resorting to ad hominem attacks rather than addressing my arguments?

    I appreciate OSUrox's post, it's good discussion.

    By the way, I'll add another question to this post. Where are all the people condemning the janitors who didn't report the issue? Being afraid of your job is strangely so easily accepted for not reporting it. Even if they were going to lose their jobs, is a janitorial position (which are plentiful) more important than child welfare?

    My main issue is that Paterno is receiving an unfair portion of blame relative to the others involved. There's no doubt in my mind he deserves blame for many things in this situation. But it's very obvious to me that the focus on Paterno has simply been a way to sell articles for the media. I choose to direct my hate mostly towards the people who 1) committed the crimes, and 2) made the actual decisions not to follow up with people about it. I'm not defending Paterno's role in this, I'm simply trying to put it into perspective. Don't think it's that unreasonable to do so.

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    psubills62 ●

  • psubills62 said...

    I think LCL did a good job of discussing this, but I'll add my twocents. We are not the moral arbiters because nobody here knows the mind of a man or what his true effect has been. And frankly, moral condemnation based on inaction is an extremely gray area that people just rarely think about. We're all sitting here posting on a message board and doing nothing about starvation in this country or others. We all have the power to do something, and we're all aware of the issue. Are we all suddenly responsible for any deaths due to starvation? Are we all condemned for "not doing enough"?

    Now I'll clarify my position. I'm not defending his inaction. I believe he made a horrible mistake in not following up. I just don't feel that anyone here is in a position to morally judge anyone without knowing their minds and their hearts. I also feel that there were specific roles in this tragedy and Paterno played a relatively minor one compared to the other four (Sandusky, Spanier, Curley, Schutz). Was that by his own choice or because it was more the responsibility of the other three officials? From the evidence we have (emails, university policy, etc.), the latter seems to be the obvious choice.

    The question you posed to me is a bit of a moot one for several reasons. First, I don't believe in moral scales. I don't believe good will outweigh bad or bad outweigh good in the end. My response was actually meant to show how silly that argument is, in fact. So no, I don't believe in good outweighing bad or bad outweighing good. I think that's a good question to pose to people who do, however. It's a moot question for another reason, though: to whom do we attribute the "good" done by Sandusky's program? Is it Sandusky himself for being a significant part of the program? Or is it the people who worked there who may have actually helped these kids? Do we assign percentages of good to each person depending on their role?

    I'm amused that some people seem to be inclined to PM me based on my arguments. By the way, I just delete them without even reading them. If I'm so clueless, then why are people resorting to ad hominem attacks rather than addressing my arguments?

    I appreciate OSUrox's post, it's good discussion.

    By the way, I'll add another question to this post. Where are all the people condemning the janitors who didn't report the issue? Being afraid of your job is strangely so easily accepted for not reporting it. Even if they were going to lose their jobs, is a janitorial position (which are plentiful) more important than child welfare?

    My main issue is that Paterno is receiving an unfair portion of blame relative to the others involved. There's no doubt in my mind he deserves blame for many things in this situation. But it's very obvious to me that the focus on Paterno has simply been a way to sell articles for the media. I choose to direct my hate mostly towards the people who 1) committed the crimes, and 2) made the actual decisions not to follow up with people about it. I'm not defending Paterno's role in this, I'm simply trying to put it into perspective. Don't think it's that unreasonable to do so.

    We will agree to disagree on whether or not I or anyone else can judge people. If I see you slapping your kid in the store, I will judge you. To ask me not to is ridiculous--I do not care what is going on in your mind or what your "true effect" has been. I will judge you based upon my morals and what I feel is wrong and right. I may not have the right to haul you to jail or to smack you back, but I will judge you all I want.

    As far as not condemning the janitors, as soon as people start threads to talk about how great of men the janitors were and how they all did more good than bad, then I will be one that comes on here and condemns them as well. And there may be even more people who knew. If not, it was a very well kept secret between these handful of men and would be surprising that no other asst coaches ever heard of anything. Were any of your assistant coaches interviewed in the Free report?

    OSUrox

  • OSUrox said...

    We will agree to disagree on whether or not I or anyone else can judge people. If I see you slapping your kid in the store, I will judge you. To ask me not to is ridiculous--I do not care what is going on in your mind or what your "true effect" has been. I will judge you based upon my morals and what I feel is wrong and right. I may not have the right to haul you to jail or to smack you back, but I will judge you all I want.

    As far as not condemning the janitors, as soon as people start threads to talk about how great of men the janitors were and how they all did more good than bad, then I will be one that comes on here and condemns them as well. And there may be even more people who knew. If not, it was a very well kept secret between these handful of men and would be surprising that no other asst coaches ever heard of anything. Were any of your assistant coaches interviewed in the Free report?

    I think it's a very different scenario. That's action, not inaction. Should you then be judged for not stopping me? That would be the more analogous situation. Or maybe I should say - would you judge the other people who are standing around not stopping me. It's also different because you can judge my actions in that moment, not my person overall. Since you have no idea what else I've done in life, can you truly know if my "good outweighs my bad"? Finally, you can give your opinion on me, morally. But that's all it is - your opinion and in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. An arbiter has power and authority. You would have none of those in the moral landscape.

    Oh I see. So the public perception of a man is the only thing that matters when discussing if he deserves blame? They don't deserve condemnation because they weren't public symbols? Not surprising to me considering that's exactly how the media thinks, and that's exactly how they're portraying things.

    I don't know if any assistant coaches were interviewed in the Freeh report.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by psubills62 on 7/14/2012 at 12:21 PM

    signature image

    psubills62 ●

  • psubills62 said...

    I think it's a very different scenario. That's action, not inaction. Should you then be judged for not stopping me? That would be the more analogous situation. It's also different because you can judge my actions in that moment, not my person overall. Since you have no idea what else I've done in life, can you truly know if my "good outweighs my bad"? Finally, you can give your opinion on me, morally. But that's all it is - your opinion and in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. An arbiter has power and authority. You would have none of those in the moral landscape.

    Oh I see. So the public perception of a man is the only thing that matters when discussing if he deserves blame? They don't deserve condemnation because they weren't public symbols? Not surprising to me considering that's exactly how the media thinks, and that's exactly how they're portraying things.

    I don't know if any assistant coaches were interviewed in the Freeh report.

    I never said I wouldn't stop you if I saw you slapping your kid. And if I didn't, I would expect to be judged just like I judged you. In fact, I would expect to be judged even if I did step in. Some people would say it's not my business and they would judge me for making it my business. It's what people do. i think you know that but you just appear to want to make some sort of point. I think if Joe were alive he would expect to be judged as well. Based upon him saying he should have done more, I think he judged himself.

    No, the janitors do indeed deserve public condemnation. Start some threads and complain about them too.

    You sound like a smart person, so I am not sure why you are comparing janitors to joe paterno. Were your students holding vigils outside the janitors homes? How about Spanier or Curley's houses? You do understand if Paterno were alive he would probably be charged and arrested just like the others. Would there be outrage and more vigils? I don' know.

    Your fan base all jumped to Paterno's defense immediately. To protect the HC who brought you all these wins and donated money. Your fan base did not jump up to protect the janitors or even the men in your admin.

    I don't think any of the asst coaches were interviewed either.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by OSUrox on 7/14/2012 at 12:33 PM

    OSUrox

  • OSUrox said...

    I never said I wouldn't stop you if I saw you slapping your kid. And if I didn't, I would expect to be judged just like I judged you. In fact, I would expect to be judged even if I did step in. Some people would say it's not my business and they would judge me for making it my business. It's what people do. i think you know that but you just appear to want to make some sort of point. I think if Joe were alive he would expect to be judged as well. Based upon him saying he should have done more, I think he judged himself.

    No, the janitors do indeed deserve public condemnation. Start some threads and complain about them too.

    You sound like a smart person, so I am not sure why you are comparing janitors to joe paterno. Were your students holding vigils outside the janitors homes? How about Spanier or Curley's houses? You do understand if Paterno were alive he would probably be charged and arrested just like the others. Would there be outrage and more vigils? I don' know.

    Your fan base all jumped to Paterno's defense immediately. To protect the HC who brought you all these wins and donated money. Your fan base did not jump up to protect the janitors or even the men in your admin.

    I don't think any of the asst coaches were interviewed either.

    Granted, you may have stepped in. But I did notice that you said you'd judge me...not that you'd judge the people around me for not stepping in.

    I am making a point. The point is that Joe is receiving far too much attention in this situation. Like I've said - he certainly deserves blame. But where's the hate for Sandusky? Spanier? Curley? Schultz?

    I don't believe Joe's statement was a judgment on himself. Wishing you had done more is natural in hindsight for a lot of situations, even if you're not necessarily responsible. If a person commits suicide, does anyone think their friends wish they had done more? Without a doubt, but that doesn't mean it was their fault or that they should be judged for it.

    I'm not necessarily comparing the janitors to Joe Paterno. What I'm interested in is the perception of people like the janitors (and Curley, Schultz, Spanier) as compared to Joe.

    You're right, we didn't hold vigils outside Spanier or Curley's house. But what you seem to be arguing is that the criticism a person deserves is equal to his overall public standing. What I'm arguing is that the criticism a person deserves is equal to their role in the situation.

    Paterno very well might be charged and arrested for perjury against the grand jury (though I will say, I'd like to know how the grand jury worded their question about the 1998 incident - I think that's key when discussing perjury). However, there's a reason he was never charged with failing to report, like Curley and Schultz.

    signature image

    psubills62 ●

  • OSUrox said...

    No, the janitors do indeed deserve public condemnation. Start some threads and complain about them too.

    You sound like a smart person, so I am not sure why you are comparing janitors to joe paterno. Were your students holding vigils outside the janitors homes? How about Spanier or Curley's houses? You do understand if Paterno were alive he would probably be charged and arrested just like the others. Would there be outrage and more vigils? I don' know.

    Your fan base all jumped to Paterno's defense immediately. To protect the HC who brought you all these wins and donated money. Your fan base did not jump up to protect the janitors or even the men in your admin.

    I don't think any of the asst coaches were interviewed either.

    The problem I see in your arguments:

    1.) If we push that the janitors, Corbett, the numerous child welfare professionals, the DA and the 2nd mile were equally to blame...than others (maybe not yourself, but others) see that as PSU and its fans ignore the failures of five men. We will be accused of pushing the blame off...

    2.) Your right those individuals were wrong, but the reality is that was a small segment of the Penn State Community involved in that. The media choose to cover that for ratings. Let me ask you...do you know how much was raised by PSU alums for Rainn?

    3.) As someone that jumped to Joe's defense, I also jump to others defense including Jim Tressel...until the FACTS of the case are state individuals should have the right to some benefit of the doubt. If you disagree, please explain why?

    4.) Just because they were not mentioned in the article, does not mean they were not interviewed. The Freeh report interviewed 1000s of individuals would you have wanted them to name each single person?

    5.) Even if they were not directly interviewed, the coaches were interviewed by the AG office and found to know nothing (It is clear that Freeh had access to the information colllected by the AG office) ...if no emails would have linked them to the case...Freeh and his team must have felt that it was not warranted.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by Lion_in_CBus on 7/14/2012 at 1:13 PM

    Lion_in_CBus ●

  • Lion_in_CBus said...

    The problem I see in your arguments:

    1.) If we push that the janitors, Corbett, the numerous child welfare professionals, the DA and the 2nd mile were equally to blame...than others (maybe not yourself, but others) see that as PSU and its fans ignore the failures of five men.

    2.) In hindsight your right those individuals were wrong, but the reality is that was a small segment of the Penn State Community involved in that. The media choose to cover that for ratings. Let me ask you...do you know how much was raised by PSU alums for Rainn?

    3.) As someone that jumped to Joe's defense, I also jump to others defense including Jim Tressel...until the FACTS of the case are state individuals should have the right to some benefit of the doubt. If you disagree, please explain why?

    4.) Just because they were not mentioned in the article, does not mean they were not interviewed. The Freeh report interviewed 1000s of individuals would you have wanted them to name each single person?

    5.) Even if they were not directly interviewed, the coaches were interviewed by the AG office and found to know nothing (It is clear that Freeh had access to the information colllected by the AG office) ...if no emails would have linked them to the case...Freeh and his team must have felt that it was not warranted.

    One addition needed, a note at the bottom advising that using conclusions and interpretations from the Freeh report as actual fact is not really what is being requested.

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    Seltz

  • psubills62 said...

    Granted, you may have stepped in. But I did notice that you said you'd judge me...not that you'd judge the people around me for not stepping in.

    I am making a point. The point is that Joe is receiving far too much attention in this situation. Like I've said - he certainly deserves blame. But where's the hate for Sandusky? Spanier? Curley? Schultz?

    I don't believe Joe's statement was a judgment on himself. Wishing you had done more is natural in hindsight for a lot of situations, even if you're not necessarily responsible. If a person commits suicide, does anyone think their friends wish they had done more? Without a doubt, but that doesn't mean it was their fault or that they should be judged for it.

    I'm not necessarily comparing the janitors to Joe Paterno. What I'm interested in is the perception of people like the janitors (and Curley, Schultz, Spanier) as compared to Joe.

    You're right, we didn't hold vigils outside Spanier or Curley's house. But what you seem to be arguing is that the criticism a person deserves is equal to his overall public standing. What I'm arguing is that the criticism a person deserves is equal to their role in the situation.

    Paterno very well might be charged and arrested for perjury against the grand jury (though I will say, I'd like to know how the grand jury worded their question about the 1998 incident - I think that's key when discussing perjury). However, there's a reason he was never charged with failing to report, like Curley and Schultz.

    I'll leave you with this, everyone who knew this was going on and did not do ALL they could to make it end until the day they died is just as responsible. That includes janitors, ADs, coaches, presidents, wives of these people, any coaches who were told throughout the 14 years...everyone. I am sure ESPN and all these people on TV feel the same way. But let's not play dumb, it's about ratings and what moves the needle. And as I mentioned above, the fact that most (most, not all) PSU fans were fervently sticking up for Joe (and not for spanier or janitors or curley) may have added some fuel to the fire.

    I am obviously an OSU fan. I wasn't screaming for the media to talk about all the good things Tressel did during that debacle. The news was about how he f'd up, not about what he has done for the community. And I understood that. And I find it rather naive that some (some) of your fans seem to be doing that in this case. And again, no one I know (and I know many PSU grads) ever mentioned any good spanier, curley or anyone else did. I think it's at least part of why people are lashing out at Joe, because that's who people seem to be so intent on sticking up for in all of this. Granted it may have shifted some after this freeh thing, but there are still many out there protecting him, but not the others.

    OSUrox

  • no names, all game?

    more like no blames, all shame

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    joven cane

  • Lion_in_CBus said...

    The problem I see in your arguments:

    1.) If we push that the janitors, Corbett, the numerous child welfare professionals, the DA and the 2nd mile were equally to blame...than others (maybe not yourself, but others) see that as PSU and its fans ignore the failures of five men. We will be accused of pushing the blame off...

    2.) Your right those individuals were wrong, but the reality is that was a small segment of the Penn State Community involved in that. The media choose to cover that for ratings. Let me ask you...do you know how much was raised by PSU alums for Rainn?

    3.) As someone that jumped to Joe's defense, I also jump to others defense including Jim Tressel...until the FACTS of the case are state individuals should have the right to some benefit of the doubt. If you disagree, please explain why?

    4.) Just because they were not mentioned in the article, does not mean they were not interviewed. The Freeh report interviewed 1000s of individuals would you have wanted them to name each single person?

    5.) Even if they were not directly interviewed, the coaches were interviewed by the AG office and found to know nothing (It is clear that Freeh had access to the information colllected by the AG office) ...if no emails would have linked them to the case...Freeh and his team must have felt that it was not warranted.

    Hey Lion....I appreciate the discussion.

    1) I am not sure, probably by some. you always have people at both ends. As I mentioned above, I think it's the vigor at which some protect Joe and not everyone else. You can see how that makes it "appear" that you all are more concerned about your icon and the football program than the bigger picture, no?

    2) I do not know the exact amount. Nor do I understand the reason for the question. No one is saying there are not good people at PSU and who have graduated from PSU. And, I hope I don't get yelled at here, but that doesn't have anything to do with what the people you mentioned in your first point did. I did read that this year was the 2nd (?) largest alumni contribution. Granted I believe most was from 1 donor, but you have a great alumni base obviously.

    3) I do agree. However, before the freeh report I found speaking with my many (seriously, many) PSU friends about even the SLIGHTEST possibility that Joe was in any way just as wrong as the others like banging my head on a wall. Take that for whatever you want. You may not have been like that, but I know (and read many comments of) several who were like that. I try real hard not to lump all fans into one group, but it became quite difficult at times.

    4) no. not at all. I was just broaching the subject of who else may know about all this, that's all. And I was asking people on this board who know more about PSU than I do if any asst coaches were interviewed. I would be curious as to who else knew, and I would think a PSU fan would be as well.

    5) thank you. i did not know they were interviewed by the AG office. Is that under any sort of oath or anything? Or just an investigation? I will just point out that the big 4 involved here obviously lied to a grand jury, so there may be a slight chance an assistant coach lied to the AG

    OSUrox

  • OSUrox said...
    I will just point out that the big 4 involved here obviously lied to a grand jury

    Just a comment on this.

    I think this is where you get some of that "defense" you were speaking of. And # 3 (I believe in Lion_in_Columbus' post) mentions similar sentiments somewhat.

    2 are yet to be tried. 2 were not even charged.

    It is conclusions like that that will give the appearance of defending the man or men(depending on the conversation as most revolves around Joe), when one with that stance is also defending, for lack of better terminology maybe, due process.

    It is nice to have decent discussion(or just reading from my end for most of your conversation) on the board. Some nice back and forth with reasonable verbiage(often the difference between bans or no bans IMO...differing opinions and criticisms easily fine, presentment often what causes the bans ha)

    This post was edited by Seltz on 7/14/2012 at 2:04 PM

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  • Seltz said...

    Just a comment on this.

    I think this is where you get some of that "defense" you were speaking of. And # 3 (I believe in Lion_in_Columbus' post) mentions similar sentiments somewhat.

    2 are yet to be tried. 2 were not even charged.

    It is conclusions like that that will give the appearance of defending the man or man(depending on the conversation as most revolves around Joe), when one with that stance is also defending, for lack of better terminology maybe, due process.

    It is nice to have decent discussion(or just reading from my end for most of your conversation) on the board. Some nice back and forth with reasonable verbiage(often the difference between bans or no bans IMO...differing opinions and criticisms easily fine, presentment often what causes the bans ha)

    Well, obviously Joe can never be charged. And you and I can have our opinions as to what would happen if he were alive today after this investigation. I have heard charges like child endangerment, perjury and conspiracy being thrown around. Not by Christine Brennan or that Howard Bryant dude, but by respected attorneys who have nothing to do with sports and with no vendettas.

    However, if you would like to have a discussion as to whether or not Joe would be going to court to face these types of charges and you fall on the other end of what I believe, then I will step away from that argument. I have not been banned from any board and I would like to keep it that way.

    OSUrox

  • OSUrox said...

    Hey Lion....I appreciate the discussion.

    1) I am not sure, probably by some. you always have people at both ends. As I mentioned above, I think it's the vigor at which some protect Joe and not everyone else. You can see how that makes it "appear" that you all are more concerned about your icon and the football program than the bigger picture, no?

    2) I do not know the exact amount. Nor do I understand the reason for the question. No one is saying there are not good people at PSU and who have graduated from PSU. And, I hope I don't get yelled at here, but that doesn't have anything to do with what the people you mentioned in your first point did. I did read that this year was the 2nd (?) largest alumni contribution. Granted I believe most was from 1 donor, but you have a great alumni base obviously.

    3) I do agree. However, before the freeh report I found speaking with my many (seriously, many) PSU friends about even the SLIGHTEST possibility that Joe was in any way just as wrong as the others like banging my head on a wall. Take that for whatever you want. You may not have been like that, but I know (and read many comments of) several who were like that. I try real hard not to lump all fans into one group, but it became quite difficult at times.

    4) no. not at all. I was just broaching the subject of who else may know about all this, that's all. And I was asking people on this board who know more about PSU than I do if any asst coaches were interviewed. I would be curious as to who else knew, and I would think a PSU fan would be as well.

    5) thank you. i did not know they were interviewed by the AG office. Is that under any sort of oath or anything? Or just an investigation? I will just point out that the big 4 involved here obviously lied to a grand jury, so there may be a slight chance an assistant coach lied to the AG

    I think your very rational and made a lot of good points.

    I understand your concerns about the vigor, but the problem is that the media is going to publish that view and push it. I understand a lot of you friends also were to vigorous in their defense, but you have to understand the attack from talking heads was so venomous it triggered overreaction by many of us. It is a self-defense mechanism we all have...However, I can understand why non-penn stater were bothered by it. However, no one was as bothered by the actions of our leadership as we were and that needs to be known.

    Plus personally, I am very bothered by the lack effort by the media to push anything but the scandal. I don't see anything but blood in their eyes. They are calling for punishment as if this is a scandal that could have only happened here. The reality is that it can happen anywhere and the media should be pushing education and awareness over selling magazines and increasing viewership.

    I don't want my posts to be hostile, but I am just so frustrated at the media portral of PSU...the same as I was (living in Columbus) of the media portral of OSU. My second, question was to gauge how far you have gone beyond spin that the media puts out. I was wonder if you limited your knowledge of the Penn State response to what the media produces. However, that doesn't seem the case Great answer. cheers If you ask certain fans, including buckeye fans I have encountered...you would think I handled JS the soap.

    BTW, here is the link stating that Scrap testified...I couldn't find specific references to LJ or Vandy, but IIRC...they were interviewed. That was hostile because I have seen too many Pitt fans call for their head when they had nothing to do with this. I don't think men like Bradley should lose their jobs and be blackballed, if they truly knew nothing other than rumors.

    Penn State interim football coach Tom Bradley was among those who testified in Sandusky case

    A summary of Bradleys testimony is not outlined in the 23-page grand jury presentment, but a source close to the investigation confirmed Bradley did appear and testified in over the summer.

    www.pennlive.com

    Lion_in_CBus ●

  • Lion_in_CBus said...

    I think your very rational and made a lot of good points.

    I understand your concerns about the vigor, but the problem is that the media is going to publish that view and push it. I understand a lot of you friends also were to vigorous in their defense, but you have to understand the attack from talking heads was so venomous it triggered overreaction by many of us. It is a self-defense mechanism we all have...However, I can understand why non-penn stater were bothered by it. However, no one was as bothered by the actions of our leadership as we were and that needs to be known.

    Plus personally, I am very bothered by the lack effort by the media to push anything but the scandal. I don't see anything but blood in their eyes. They are calling for punishment as if this is a scandal that could have only happened here. The reality is that it can happen anywhere and the media should be pushing education and awareness over selling magazines and increasing viewership.

    I don't want my posts to be hostile, but I am just so frustrated at the media portral of PSU...the same as I was (living in Columbus) of the media portral of OSU. My second, question was to gauge how far you have gone beyond spin that the media puts out. I was wonder if you limited your knowledge of the Penn State response to what the media produces. However, that doesn't seem the case Great answer. cheers If you ask certain fans, including buckeye fans I have encountered...you would think I handled JS the soap.

    BTW, here is the link stating that Scrap testified...I couldn't find specific references to LJ or Vandy, but IIRC...they were interviewed. That was hostile because I have seen too many Pitt fans call for their head when they had nothing to do with this. I don't think men like Bradley should lose their jobs and be blackballed, if they truly knew nothing other than rumors.

    cheers back atcha lion.

    I understand the vigor, been there done that.

    Thanks for the link.

    EDIT: not a big fan of up or down votes. but I just gave my first upvote to a non bucknut

    This post was edited by OSUrox on 7/14/2012 at 3:02 PM

    OSUrox

  • My parents and the Marine Corps taught me that Integrity, Honor, Courage, and true Character are all best judged when the decision being made may have negative impacts on us. Making the tough call in the face of extreme adversity and doing the right thing when no one is watching.

    Joe Paterno the football Legend was nearly perfect, a great football coach and leader of young men. This is without question when you look at the impact he had on so many young men's lives. He instilled in them a never quit work ethic, strong sense character, and gave them direction for a successful life after football.

    Joe Paterno the man did many great things but failed miserably when it was most important for him to step up and lead by example. He had a profound opportunity to show the integrity and honor an character he preached each and every day to those young men and he failed completely. He chose the image of the university and football program over the welfare of those young boys. He, along with Spainer, Curley, and Shultz had the opportunity to stop a monster and chose to enable him instead by not reporting this until something was done.

    Joe Paterno the person, like all of us was never perfect, although we wanted to believe he was. This is what is so hard to come to terms with for me and probably most of you.
    I continue to want Joe the Legend to be reality... Unfortunately, reality never lives up to the legend.

    Does this mean that Joe is a horrible person and none of the good he did matters? I don't believe so. I believe like many of us, he was not perfect, and had regrets in his life and made choices he would like to change. Unfortunately in life we have to life with the choice we make and the consequesnce they bring. This will and should be part of Joe's Legacy as unfortunate as that may be. This decision carried great weight and great consequences for the wrong one, not just for Joe, but for those victims.

    For me personally, I have made mistakes and am far from perfect. I have also made some very difficult choices and had take responsibility in the face of harsh circumstances. I've paid some high prices for making the hard choice but I would never change my decision.

    "I'd rather die like a dog in the street doing what I know is right than live knowing that I made the cowards choice and did not protect the helpless."

    JB

    jbilbow

  • @tmaluchnik said...

    What I dont like is people telling me or our fan base what to do. It is arrogant, self-righteous, and ignorant.

    Joe made a huge mistake, but he also did more good than a great majority of people to walk this earth. It is not so simple to just say that this 1 bad mistake outweights all the good he has done. Why? Who is balancing the scale? OSU fans? Pitt fans? It is all from the perspective of each person.

    I am not standing behind and defending Joe and am extremely disappointed that someone who lead us on the right path for so many years, failed us terribly. But, to come on here and call us cultists for believing and following a man who has done great things in his life for over 40 years here at PSU is extremely arrogant and ignorant.

    I didn't call u a cultist. By all means, you should do whatever you want to do. It's your right and it's the right of others to be disappointed in you.

    Even if mother teresa had hidden child rape to help a football program....it would certainly outweigh the good she has done. I would care less if joe pa was in the mafia and had murdered a few people.

    ReasonableDoubt ●

  • psubills62 said...

    Not going to let go of anything.

    I see the situation as four humans who made severe, severe mistakes. That does not erase any legacy they might have had. There are no arbitrary scales where good outweighs bad or vice versa. Each man is judged based on the entirety of his life.

    There is nothing wrong with both choosing to honor the good and weep for the bad. Not going apologize for thinking that's a reasonable approach.

    Legacy is in the eyes of the people viewing it. You have your opinion of Joe Pa and it must be difficult for psu fans to accept these facts especially after his recent passing. But my father once told me there are two things a man only really ever owns. Those two things are your word and your name. I carry that advice with me everyday. In my opinion Joe Pa ruined his most valuable possessions.

    This post was edited by ScarletGrayskul on 7/14/2012 at 9:33 PM

    ScarletGrayskul

  • ScarletGrayskul said...

    Legacy is in the eyes of the people viewing it. You have your opinion of Joe Pa and it must be difficult for psu fans to accept these facts especially after his recent passing. But my father once told me there are two things a man only really ever owns. Those two things are your word and your name. I carry that advice with me everyday. In my opinion Joe Pa ruined his most valuable possessions.

    The facts you speak of are up for debate which will lead to your opinion as opposed to mine. Other than that your spot on.

    Penn State 7x National Champs, home of the winningest college football coach to ever grace a sideline.

    NittanyEagles ●

  • NittanyEagles said...

    The facts you speak of are up for debate which will lead to your opinion as opposed to mine. Other than that your spot on.

    Is it a fact that joe pa knew about the rapes?

    This post was edited by ReasonableDoubt on 7/15/2012 at 3:56 PM

    ReasonableDoubt ●

  • ReasonableDoubt said...

    Is it a fact that joe pa knew about the tapes?

    Exactly this. Your interpretation may differ from mine. I don't know if you have yet but read the Freeh Report it has all the inferences and suspicians. Nothing really new from 8 months ago.

    Penn State 7x National Champs, home of the winningest college football coach to ever grace a sideline.

    NittanyEagles ●

  • NittanyEagles said...

    Exactly this. Your interpretation may differ from mine. I don't know if you have yet but read the Freeh Report it has all the inferences and suspicians. Nothing really new from 8 months ago.

    My point is that...inferences/rumors aside, if joe pa knew of the accusations and did nothing....he's lost a lot in my eyes. Any person that loves kids won't stop until he gets to the bottom of what happened

    ReasonableDoubt ●

  • ReasonableDoubt said...

    My point is that...inferences/rumors aside, if joe pa knew of the accusations and did nothing....he's lost a lot in my eyes. Any person that loves kids won't stop until he gets to the bottom of what happened

    if joe pa knew of the accusations and did nothing

    Million dollar question.

    Penn State 7x National Champs, home of the winningest college football coach to ever grace a sideline.

    NittanyEagles ●

  • The emails clearly show he knew about 1998(which seemed extremely likely all along but not provable). the fact that he lied about that under oath leads me to only one conclusion. Please propose an alternate explanation of his behavior.

    perfect

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